Tuesday, November 29, 2005

Two Gay Conservatives and torture

Michael on Gay Orbit is Parroting the latest foolish line from Sully on torture and they both manage to miss the point.

First I am against some of the torture techniques the CIA is allegedly doing (the only thing so far the US government is doing near the torture neighborhood)However John McCain missed the point which lead to this snow ball

"Torture doesn't work" Well it depends on what your goal is.
If your goal is to spread intimidation and fear ( ala Saddam) the torture works great. Perhaps torture works better then anything on the planet.

Torture as interrogation techniques does work but it does work efficently... it doesn't get you a very good result. But it does get results. Just not reliable results.Unfortunately that doesn't make a good soundbyte on either way you slice it. So McCain and NewsMax ( quoting NRO I think) got it wrong because they needed a soundbyte.

But Mike gets it shot out of the park for missing the point right here

To paraphrase, basically, this:

Torture worked on John McCain to extract information of no value and to get him to sign a document that meant nothing because he didn’t know what was written on it. Therefore, torture is ok.

What Information did they get John McCain to reveal?

  • The punishment finally worked, McCain said. "Eventually, I gave them my ship's name and squadron number, and confirmed that my target had been the power plant."
#1) Propeganda Value.

Anyone who was a POW from that unit now had an operational detail that could be used to tell them how evil they are. It could be used to aid them in breaking down under torture. Used for External propeganda ( to political leftists) could be useful for internal propeganda to win hearts and minds.

#2) It gave them an idea of the training/capacity/quality of the forces from that ship

Recalling how he gave up military information to his interrogators, McCain said: "I regret very much having done so. The information was of no real use to the Vietnamese, but the Code of Conduct for American Prisoners of War orders us to refrain from providing any information beyond our names, rank and serial number."

John boy should also know it was a treaty violation for the Vietnamese to ask these questions but thats oK the NV's had a out which John McCain ( and other POWS) under torture gave them to further justify and build their torture.

McCain was taken to an interrogation room and ordered to sign a document confessing to war crimes. "I signed it," he recalled. "It was in their language, and spoke about black crimes, and other generalities."

"I had learned what we all learned over there," McCain said. "Every man has his breaking point. I had reached mine."

By confessing to violations of the Geneva Conventions in his conduct as a US soldier John under the NV's worldview was then a terrorist and ( yes) open for all forms of fun treatment they gave him.

So Micheal and Andrew both refuse to recognize the value to the North Vietnamese and their war strategy. But John McCain missed that point so thats ok.

Now that gets to the point of the Newsmax closing ( which came from a longer national review piece iirc)

That McCain broke under torture doesn't make him any less of an American hero. But it does prove he's wrong to claim that harsh interrogation techniques simply don't work.

His experience shows torture achieves the goals of a regime that is willing to use it and thus attacks his thesis "torture doesn't work"

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